Bonus: Inside the Making of Yasha

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, Yasha listeners. If you're tuning in because you've already listened to part one of the podcast, welcome back. Eighteen years ago, when I stuffed some old camcorder tapes of an interview with my grandfather into a drawer, I never imagined anyone would ever hear them. All these years later, it's amazing that his story is reaching so many people. To everyone who has taken time out of their day to listen, and especially those who have reached out, left a rating or review, or told a friend about Yasha, thank you. When I set out to create this podcast, I really had no idea what it would look like, or I guess sound like. It's been a long road from that camcorder to this feed, and I recently had the chance to look back and reflect on it all. In this bonus episode, I wanted to share a conversation I had with BuzzSprout, who is the hosting partner for this show. They were kind enough to reach out and ask me a few questions about how and why I decided to turn my grandfather's recordings into a podcast. We discussed what goes into transforming family history into narrative audio, how to fit a passion project into an already busy life, and how other independent creators can make something they're proud of. At most, I hope my answers here can inspire someone else out there to do what I did, and at least give a little sneak peek into what went on behind the mic. So if you're curious how an 18-year-old interview became a fully produced historical documentary, why it took a whopping three years to produce five episodes, or how to fake it till you make it as a first-time podcaster, keep listening. And if you haven't already, hit follow. Part two is coming soon. Thanks, and I hope you enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

So, for anyone who has not heard about your podcast, can you tell me a little bit about it?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, sure. Yasha is a limited series podcast that follows the story of my grandfather and his childhood flight across the Soviet Union during the Nazi invasion of World War II. It's built around an interview I recorded with him years ago on a on a crappy old camcorder, which we we turned into something that I would say is a cross between historical documentary and intimate family memoir.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

That's amazing. Yeah, when you because you had mentioned on your website that you had just sat down with him and and recorded it, and it sounded like you didn't actually realize what you were recording at the time. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yeah, no, I didn't realize at all. Um it was it was very um spur of the moment and raw when I did it. It was just kind of out of a grandkid's curiosity about their grandfather's story, not knowing much about it. I always knew he had a kind of crazy childhood, and I'd heard bits and pieces from various family members over the years, but I didn't have any idea the weight of it, the details, and how much intimate detail he actually remembered all those years later. And and and that full realization only came, unfortunately, years later, after after he had already passed away.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

And after you had recorded that interview with him, what did you do with the tapes? Because you're saying that you didn't realize that it was important or what he had said. And so you had just kind of like stored the tapes and came back to them later. Like what what's the story with that?

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Yeah, I uh I basically put them in a drawer in what was then my college apartment, thinking they're gonna sit here and I'll figure out what to do with them. And then for all intents and purposes, I forgot about them for like 10 years. Uh time just went by, you know, I was living my life. You know, it's one of those things where, you know, you think, okay, I got this stuff recorded, it's memorialized now, I have it. But I really didn't have any inkling, like I said, what I was holding or that I should ever do anything with it.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

And, you know, I think a combination of things made me come back to the tapes all that time later, one of which, like I said, is is Yash's passing away. You know, it's one of those one of those things. I think it was my way of maybe remembering him or holding on to something that I could. And then also at that time, kind of a growing interest in in World War II and particularly the Eastern Front, you know, the extraordinary and horrible plight of of Jews during that time. You know, knowing my family was was in there somewhere, was involved somehow, I was just really curious about finding out exactly how. And then, of course, I go back and I listen to the tapes again all that time later, and I hear this, you know, within this broader story of survival, I hear all these little amazing anecdotes and characters and places that I I couldn't really absorb the first time when we were doing it live. And it's just the kind of stuff that a storyteller dreams of of finding. So I knew I had to bring it to life at that point.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah, and what made you decide to bring it to life in the context of a podcast?

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Actually, it's funny, it didn't start as a podcast. I originally wanted to turn it into a novel based on his story because I'm I've kind of like been a writer, a writer first all my life. I didn't quite understand how ambitious and difficult that would be to write a whole book and a whole novel about his story. And so after struggling with that for a while, I I realized like I have his voice, you know, I already have his story. Uh, I have it in the way, you know, told in the way he wanted to tell it. I don't need to retell it. I just need to arrange it into a coherent narrative and add some historical background to put it in context, you know. And then uh, you know, I started imagining how I could bring it to life with music and sound effects and audio and and particularly podcasting was the perfect way to do that. And that and that transition was actually really exciting for me because I've I've been a consumer of podcasts and narrative podcasts in particular for a long time. And I always thought it was the perfect format for something like this where you know you get someone's actual voice, you know, like real texture, real emotion, but the listeners still have to close their eyes and build the world themselves, which I find really, really cool. So that felt like exactly the right way to tell the story.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Yeah. And I think that a lot of people might have some similar like testimony or audio of their family members perhaps sitting around. Maybe it's something that was recorded, you know, a decade or decades ago. And did you find that it was hard taking that audio and making it like listenable in an audio in a podcast format, like matching? Because you have such beautiful narrative audio in it and like meshing that up. What was the hardest part about that?

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Yeah, there were there were lots of challenges, some small, some big. You know, the small things are like, you know, obviously he has a very thick accent. You know, he was he he grew up in the Soviet Union. So, you know, there were some some really great lines that I couldn't actually end up using because it's like no one's gonna understand what what he said there. That was hard. You know, obviously he wasn't delivering the story in a way that he knew would be part of some sort of finished product. So, you know, he he mumbled a lot, he didn't exactly speak in full sentences all the time, you know, that plus his English sec English as a second language. So all that stuff was was challenging, but it was it was workable. Like he's understandable enough where we were able to string together enough of his testimony with my context to make it work. You know, I think also, I guess in some ways, toward the beginning I felt lucky because, like I said, I I had the story, I had the recorded testimony, which was the backbone of the whole thing. I thought, oh, I'll just add some historical facts here and there, add a little bit of music, and I'll have a show. But as I got deeper into building the narrative, I started to kind of regret so much waiting as long as I did, because I realized how many details I was actually missing and how many, like, how many more clarifying questions I would have loved to have asked him, my grandfather, if he was still around. You know, as shocked as I was at the level of detail and vividness of his memories, when you're putting together a comprehensive narrative, you like to be able to ask follow-up questions. Um, and I couldn't do that. So for better or for worse, I only had what I had and I had to fill in the gaps best I could. That was definitely a big challenge.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Wow, I can imagine. Yeah, I think about all the times I've had to record like pickups for an interview if I didn't quite get exactly what I was wanting. And I I can only imagine how frustrating that would be to just not be able to do that. And I I I applaud you for it because you did such a great job. I mean, um, okay, so if when we're talking about how highly produced your podcast is, because I mean, yeah, you you have all this like music betting and you have like this gorgeous narration and you had to write the script for it and you had to piece together all the stuff. Like, how did you find the time to do this while you're working full-time, while you're caring for your family, and it's not part of your full-time job?

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah. Well, no deadline helps. I think that's that's one of the double-edged swords, I think, of producing an indie show like this is that like no one's pushing you to finish it but yourself. And in my case, I'm ashamed to admit it, but it took you know three plus years to churn out five episodes. So, you know, it was working on it when I could. And in all honesty, I was never one of those people who could get up at 4 a.m. or stay up super late working on something like this. I just didn't have the energy. You know, my weekends were pretty full of family obligations, et cetera, like everybody else. So I snuck in quite a few hours during my nine to five, which I'm sure some of my former bosses might not appreciate hearing. But when you're passionate about something, you you find a way. I should also mention, too, that you know, I wasn't alone in this on the production value and sound design part of it. I was incredibly lucky to find uh a freelance editor and sound designer who who signed on to the project from the very beginning, and without whom the show would absolutely not be what it is. So uh shout out to Carter Wogan, who is an immensely talented guy, uh, really understood my my vision, so to speak, right off the bat. And so all the credit for like as far as the highly produced nature of the show goes to him.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, that's that's something that I think a lot of people, it's funny. You it's like that whole saying of like um overnight successes took years. Like a lot of overnight successes took years, right? And I think that a lot of people will look at that and be like, oh, I can't believe that. But you're I love that you're honest and you're like, look, this was like three years, and like I did it when I could, and I just slipped it in and I had to outsource things that were way too difficult. And I think that that's a really good lesson for indie creators too. Um This is interesting because you're saying that you you started as a writer, but what did you learn about writing narration for audio and like stringing a story together that other podcasters can learn from or any tips that you have for that, even if they're not making a historical documentary?

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Yeah, that's a really good one because like I said, I'm I'm really like a prose writer first. So there was there was definitely a learning curve there. Like I learned very quickly that uh the voice in my head that that reads something is very different than how my actual voice sounds when it's coming out, if that makes sense. So, you know, for example, like something that's obviously a run-on sentence on paper that would like trip you up reading it can actually work fine in narration, you know, if the pacing and the inflection is right. Or things like, you know, letting silence do some work, not filling every second with narration, letting a pause sit there. I got in the habit of of practicing lines out loud as I scripted them so I could kind of hear how they would land when I actually spoke them as opposed to just read them. You know, another big thing I learned after a lot of trial and error is that the narration's job isn't to necessarily explain the tape, it's to set up the tape so it lands better. If a moment from my grandfather's actual voice already carried emotion, like I tried with varying success, I think, to not narrate on top of that too much and re-explain it. But yeah, I just I really had to train myself not to think like a writer all the time, but as someone who is verbalizing a story.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Yeah, I I agree with you on a lot of that. We actually just did a script, an episode about scripting, but like not sounding scripted when you're scripting. And I I fully agree with a lot of that. And um, there's some things that you said that remind me a lot of like Iraqlass. Like he he's very much into like letting there be silence and beats to really emphasize a point. So that's awesome. Um okay, so for someone who wants to make a more narrative or documentary style podcast, what is one place they should start if they feel overwhelmed at that idea?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Well, I understand that for sure. I felt that way too. Um, I would say, like, I would say really hone in on the story, first and foremost. Like take the role of almost of almost like a researcher or a hobbyist instead of a podcaster, you know, before even thinking about the style of the show, the scripting, anything. Like spend time just digging in. Like take notes on the parts that made you feel something, research, like research the heck out of it. For Yasha, a lot of what I consider the strongest passages come from me just noodling around on the internet during a research binge and finding interesting anecdotes or information that kind of sat adjacent to Yasha's story and that could help add texture to it. Also, I would say, I would say find another similar show or shows for inspiration. For me, right after I started writing episode one, I very haphazardly came across a show called Pack One Bag, which actually I think it won the Audio Storytelling Award at Tribeca. So it was a major, major successful show. Um, it's hosted by another guy kind of like me, telling the story of his Jewish family's experience in fascist Italy during World War II. That show is so super well done. It provided me endless inspiration for not only like how a story like my grandfather's could come to life, but that it it could actually attract listeners. So it always helps to find shows that are doing what you're doing in some way that's already been successful to find inspiration from. So I would say definitely seek those out too.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Absolutely. Did you do you ever listen to um Tenderfoot TV?

SPEAKER_00 14:20

I've heard of it, but I've not.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

You it's so funny because when I was listening to your podcast to episode one, um I I had my friend listen to it and I was like, oh my gosh. I was like, he sounds just like Pincy. Like it just it sounds so nice. Like it's it's a very big compliment. I love his narrations. He he did like Up and Vanished and High Strange and um all these other big podcasts. But yeah, he's he's another person, but you you guys both have that same sort of like warm baritone like timber to your voice, and it just reminds me so much of him. So you should listen to that. Um, I think you'd like to.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Well, thank you. I'll definitely check that out. Thank you for that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

I mean, it was like I was like, is this pain? It sounds like yo, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Okay. Um oh, I think this is a good question. Um, so now we're moving into like keeping podcasting sustainable. How did you break this project into manageable pieces? Because I would argue that this is a very big project.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Yes. Again, taking three years definitely helped. I never felt like I had too much to do in a short amount of time, even though I always wanted to work on it, but I I couldn't. I think I think a big help for me was to develop a, I guess you could call it a production process early on for each episode that could be broken into manageable uh parts. So something like, you know, first you know, create a starting and an ending point on the overall story timeline for that particular episode, you know, then listen and refamiliarize myself with that portion of my grandfather's tape, research the story and historical elements within that portion of the tape, start scripting voiceover to support my grandfather's narration, you know, record voiceover, send script to editor with notes, et cetera, et cetera. You know, just piece by piece. It's that that way, like no single sitting, no single work session felt overwhelming. I wasn't trying to write an episode in one sitting. I was just doing the next small part of the process and just keeping it piecemeal like that and only thinking about the single step you're working on. Um and have yeah, having that organized process that you kind of follow for each each episode was definitely helpful.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Did you use a project management software or like a spreadsheet? Or how did you keep track of that or pen and paper?

SPEAKER_00 16:38

I didn't, which is which is interesting because I in my like in my work, my professional life, I I definitely am like a very organized person. I use project management, I use checklists, I use timelines. For this project, I don't maybe it was just because I there were such big gaps between of time between like when when I could actually work on it. I didn't really find that kind of stuff too helpful. I almost had to like each time I sat down, I had to remind myself where I ended last time, what I was working on, what's coming next in the process. And I was able to kind of use that as an organizational tool, like in and of itself, without the usual tools I would use in my in my regular life.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's kind of that thing where this is like a passion project for you. And I feel like sometimes when you put too much structure on things that you're as just like a hobby or passion project, it can actually start to feel more like a job, especially if in your everyday job you're using checklists and project management software and stuff like that could kind of like suck the fun out of it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Yeah, that's a very good point. Yeah, you want to you want to keep it keep it fresh and fun and inspiring. And yeah, if it starts to resemble your the rest of your life too much, it gets gets a little boring.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah. So oh, I love this. Okay. What would you tell another creator who has a meaningful story but feels like they are not qualified to make it into a podcast?

SPEAKER_00 18:04

First of all, I would say use this show as living proof, use Yasha's Living Proof because that that was me. I have this amazing firsthand testimony sitting in a drawer, like I mentioned, for a decade. And partially because I didn't feel qualified. I I wasn't a producer, I wasn't a sound person. I didn't know the first thing about publishing a podcast. I don't know that that qualified is really what what mattered, what this work requires. Like I think what it actually requires is caring enough about the story to figure things out as you go and being willing to iterate on something for a while before you get decent at it. I made a lot up, I made a lot of it up as I went, especially toward the beginning. I leaned on people who knew more than me, like my sound designer. And the rest I just learned by doing. So I think like if you have a story that matters to you, that's the qualification right there. Like everything else, I think, is a skill, and skills are are learnable to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

I love that. What a great answer.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Um, okay, so one last question for you. You said on the website, somewhere in the world, another grandfather or grandmother, another great uncle, another witness is running out of time. And what do you hope this podcast inspires other people to do, specifically with their grandmothers or aunts or uncles?

SPEAKER_00 19:28

It's quite a dramatic line now that I hear it out loud. Uh but it's I mean, the the I think the idea is that like dig up that dusty camcorder. Or I guess maybe pull out your iPhone these days. That's probably a little bit easier.

unknown 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

And have at least a pen and a piece of paper or something, be a little bit more prepared than I was. No, I just think, you know, like one of the things that continues to boggle my mind with this project is and making the show is like this, you know, incredibly intense, visceral, seemingly unique story is just one story. Even in this very theater of history, like this specific time period, this specific place, there are quite literally millions more stories that are just as harrowing, just as seemingly unrepeatable, sitting in people's either in people's memories or on some old camcorder tapes, maybe somewhere right now. I just our our our parents and grandparents, etc., etc., have so many stories to tell. And sometimes it just takes a curious grandkid over home from college for the weekend to get them to open up about it.

unknown 20:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

And you know, it doesn't even have to be a relative. Find a story that means something to you and shine a light on it. Tell it in a way that that it hasn't been told before. But I guess the point is whatever, whatever story it is, it's finite, right? Like we only get to hear it while someone's still around to tell it. So go out there and and just do it like I did. Don't worry about just go get the story first, and then you can always figure out what to do with it later.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

I love that. That's such great advice. Thank you so much, Jeremy.